Category: Geeks r Us
Hi all. Well, I'd like a history lesson. What was accessibility like in the early days of computing? What was it like to use a serial braille display? Bring all your experiences: the ones of DOS, as well as the lesser known operating systems, such asRISC OS, UNIX, etc. But do, share your experiences! It's an open table.
DOS was hit or miss. All applications were different when it came to keystrokes. I know some people on here write and write about DOS and older systems as though they were better than sliced bread.
But it was a headache to system administrate over networks, and it was horrible at managing memory when you start using suites of Office applications, which working people used. Obviously, Word Perfect 5.1 was the gold standard of word processing for years, then came along 6.0 with some more bells and whistles.
Novell 4.0 comes to mind for system administration.
Windows 3.1/3.11 was never stable, and Windows 95 was an improvement.
Most users got a decent setup once XP came out.
Then 7 made things a lot better memory wise.
The people you hear talking how great the old systems were are just playing with them and not having to get real work done, plus they are not trying to help hundreds or even thousands of users try to use the things in a live networking environment.
You can forget about Internet and connectivity being anything resembling stable.
When I started using talking computers, it was 1987. I started with an Apple II-E using Bex. This was back in the days of floppy disks, 5.25 inch square thingies that had to be put into the computer so it would boot up.
After raduating from High School, I mainly used a Keynote Gold, a Toshiba laptop with Keysoft put on it. I didn't start using Word Perfect until 1995 and only used that for a short while. When I began my internship in 1998, the agency for which I worked was already using Windows 95 and Word 97.
I remember very very little about the basics of the beginning systems other than there were allot of commands and the speak quality sucked. It was like someone turning on a light in a dark room though as far as opening up opportunities. I wasn't really technically minded so didn't have much experience with mainstream applications like Leo is talking about.
I did fart around on BBS's though when those first came out. I loved BBS's.
That was probably about as helpful as tits on a bore hog but there it is for what it's worth. Let's just say that I'm extatic to see how far technology has come and what a true improvement it has made in my life and that of others with disabilities.
What was it like to install an application? We2l, dumb question, really. I'd imagine it was on a floppy disk and you ran it off that. And hey, the Apple IIE. I found an Apple II emulator on another thread. Was their terminal DOS commands, or did it have a menu interface?
The one I had required a disk to boot. Otherwise, it would just boot up to a blinking cursor and you could write basic commands. Wow, I haven't thought of this stuff in years.
I had 2 versions of the Bex program. The one I had at school required 2 disks, the boot disk and the main disk. The other, just required a flip of the disk once the program was loaded. I think the flip came when it was time to go to the main menue.
I had a couple of game disks. One had 5 games, Space Invaders,Typing Shootout, and a few others. I guess those were on a menu system since when the disk was incerted, I would choose which games to play. Surprisingly, I really loved the space invaders game.
Oh, trying to install a driver on windows 3.11 was hit and miss. Sometimes it would even miss place the driver for your dc rom and you had to go search for it. Then installing it Ugg, glad that OS is dead. Lets see, I used out spoken until I left windows 98, that was not much fun either, no links list, screw having headings and I could go on and on.
I used lots of different speech programs, but the most stable one was jaws3.1. It came on about five floppies and forget it if you got them out of order.
The first porn I ever saw was on a bbs that the jaws techies ran.
Like someone said, if you booted without a floppy in the drive, you would come up with a subset of basic. I guess you were expected to write your own operating system.
The first thing you had to do was enter the time and date. Then someone got smart and put a battery in the computer.
Bob
As for the internet, it all depends on which version of DOS you are using, as well as the hardware you choose. Obviously, dialup will be slower than wireless. You then have to decide whether to use an all-in-one package, like Nettamer, or whether you wish to deal with drivers, dialers, etc. I haven't done any of this yet, but think I'll either choose wireless or Nettamer. I know of someone who is a dedicated MS-DOS 7.10 user, and she is always on the internet. But she has a shell account, not ppp or wireless, and does not multitask. All of the above are possible with the newer versions.
Given your questions, I think you will find this a treasure trove of information. It debunks many myths about DOS, and shows why it's still usable today. I can also give you many other links on basic DOS commands, as well as sites for files and a huge list of programs.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/DOS-Fal.html
That said, the above was written from the sighted perspective, not the blind one. Even though the operating system and software for it are still evolving, screen readers are not. The only one that I know of that has been made open source is Provox, and even the user's manual confused the hell out of me! The only thing that I've ever seen that was worse was Vert, and yes, I do have all disks, including the tracker, and the synthesizer. But I have never installed or used it. At any rate, for use with things like WordPerfect 5.1 and 6.0, Calcworthy and Noteworthy, various games and utilities, etc. it's fine. I will update everyone once I get this new machine configured. Hopefully, I'll get it back in about two weeks and can try out some of the newer software, as well as a few standbys that I've only read about up until now.
I have the Keynote Gold laptops that Domestic Goddess mentioned. They have MSDOS 6.21 on them, but it's a stripped down version, as Humanware mostly expected users to use their KeySoft program. They have a 100mb hard drive, a standard 3.5 inch floppy drive, a pcmcia slot, serial and parallel ports, and a 486 processor. They're missing an important key that's necessary when programming in QuickBASIC, but I forget what it is at the moment. They don't have a built-in modem or cd rom drive. But they do use a wonderful synthesizer, called KeyNote Gold VoiceCard. It's the best DOS synthesizer I have ever heard, and I have been seeking the SA (standalone) and/or a Keynote Companion for many years now. If you've ever heard a BrailleNote or a Language Master, it's the same voice.
Depending on the era in which they were made, DOS programs can come on 3.5 inch or 5.25 inch floppies or on cds. I can't speak for modern software, but older installations tended to be fairly simple for most consumer products, particularly those made for the blind. They would give you choices like y/n for yes and no or numbers to hit. There were no graphical buttons or other inaccessible glitches (at least with the ones I have tried) that stop you in the middle of an installation. Each program in DOS is stored in one directory, and though some programs come with their own uninstallers, many times, removing something is as easy as emptying the directory and then removing it. For example. At the c prompt.
cd wp51
del *.*
cd
rd wp51
Now, WordPerfect is completely removed from your machine, with no residual files to clean up. That said, I am unsure what would happen if, for example, you had a batch file that started a program, such as a screen reader, when the computer started and then you deleted it. My workaround would be to edit the autoexec.bat file and remove the extra lines, and then delete the program.
Natively, DOS is a commandline system. But as you will discover at the fallacies link from earlier, shells can be added to it so that it runs in either a tui (text user interface) environment, which clean and straight forward menus, or in a gui (graphical user interface) environment, which is similar to Windows. There are also a few shells made for the blind that help with things like file management.
I, too, am interested in Apples. I have an IIC and an IIGS, but never really got to play with them. The most I did was to use a program called Dr. Pete's Talking Writer. I actually still have the disk from my childhood! The IIGS I was given as a present, by a teacher at my high school, in 2002, when I was graduated. I also received a printer, paper, and other software. I then called APH and bought Proterm (an internet program) and TextTalker (a screen reader), and I remember that they only had three of those left at the time. I have Bex, but it was thrown in with a bunch of other old things, when the New Jersey Commission for the Blind gave them to me, so I don't know if I have the entire system or not. As with my high school, they would have thrown them all out. Anyway, I have an Echo synthesizer for the Apple, as well as a more obscure synthesizer. I think it's called something like Computalker. I would love to pull out my IIGS, just to play with it, to see if I can get online, play games, etc. But that really would be a hobby machine for me.
hahahahaha Domestic Goddess, let's see if I can remember that menu from Dr. Pete's Talking writer.
1 talking writer, 2 typing game, 3 dragon maze, 4 space invaders, 5 music game, six voice control, 7 exit. Listening to ESpeak say it, I really have to laugh. The Echo almost sang it. It's difficult to describe, but once you hear an Echo synthesizer, you'll never forget it. They're very unique, and definitely not something I would wish to use every day.
I have never used Windows 3.1. I always wanted to experiment with it but never got the chance. My first experience with Windows was 95, and then, I went straight to XP.
I forgot to add. DOS machines re extremely quic as far as booting up. At least, I have never seen a slow one. You hit the power button and DOS comes on quicker than you can blink. I have never had a Windows machine that could match it, even brand new and out of the box!
AS for JFW, the oldest version I have is 3.3, but those are on cd. I didn't realise that JFW came on floppies, though I would naturally expect JAWS for DOS to do so. I am actually trying to decide which screen reader I want to be my main one. I'm used to VocalEyes, but also have JAWS and ASAP. I am also wondering if sets can be written for these to make some programs more accessible.
Uninstalling DOS programs usually meant removing items from autoexec.bat - the path line - and sometimes variables in config.sys, or some other contusion like files buffers and stacks to make it work properly.
And when DOS hung or crashed, you had to reboot cold. No task manager, no nothing.
You also must remember that computing tasks were less complex, e.g. people weren't playing videos and music on their computers. Tiffanitsa and other hobbyists can dig up some rare software that was used, usually after DOS was dying, to do these things. But again, en masse, people were not doing this.
I only briefly saw an Apple II in 1985, a school district office or something had one. But I was too poor to afford one.
Also, the 5-1/4 inch disks degraded very quickly. People were always having trouble with those, since they were required to boot up the system all the time.
You'll probably be able to tell the difference here between the hobbyists with their fan sites, and those of us who had to work on these and do technical work for a living.
If what you want to know is how it really was, ask the latter. If what you want is the nostalgic viewpoint with websites full of propaganda, ask the former.
I think it's a good question you bring up, and hope you are asking for rational, as well as curious reasons. Like DomesticGoddess pointed out, we are extremely fortunate to live in the times we now inhabit, with all the technology and Internet at our fingertips.
This brings me to the Internet in general. Most people did not access the web with DOS. That's because most people didn't access the web at all. For a blind person, life before the Internet was like life before the printing press for the sighted people.
I promise, I will go to my grave awestruck by the immense advantages we now have, and continue to have, compared to my own youth. Some of my worst nightmares are being forced to time travel back into the time of utter intellectual darkness which people have when they cannot freely access information as we blind people now can.
I am sorry but give me a gui interface over a command driven any time. I had to sit through about 3 weeks of dos traying with my first computer. having to remember to type c:/ to get to the root of a drive and then cd/wordpurffect/what ever directory your file was located in was not fun at all. Also, just to load a program off a floppy drive, again, cd/a:/ make sure you have the first set-up disk in the drive. How not cool it was still is not cool to live thows days. When I was yung I removed one of my brothers CD rom driver via dos while attempting to remove a game one of his kids installed on to his computer. ya, no internet, no driver for it and there was no such thing as factory reset on earlier computers. Okay, I will stop but even to day I am glad to have a Gu interace if someone forced me to use a command line driven interface I would shoot them on sight.
Oh ya, my nexus5 runs circles around a old dos computers boot up time.
Wait, its a gui, who would of thunk it!!. Okay I will stop now lol!.
I figured that was true with autoexec.bat, but didn't realise that config.sys was involved. I have never edited or opened that file. But I'm very glad that you told me, so that I will know for future uninstalls. I've never seen DOS hang or crash, and hope never to do so, but that's probably wishful thinking, as I will be experimenting a lot. I usually reboot cold, no matter what operating system I'm using, unless I can get speech back or just cancel a program and get the computer to work again. There are programs for video and audio streaming, as well as for watching dvds, etc. But as LeoGuardian said, most people weren't doing these things when DOS was at its peak.
I saw many Apple IIEs, but they were at school. That's one model that I don't have. Unlike the IIC, it has separate floppy drives, usually two of them, stacked ontop of one another, and usually 5.25 inch. The speaker was still built into the keyboard, and that was quite large. The IIGS, if I recall correctly (I barely saw mine before it was put away) has a separate keyboard and the disks, including 3.5 inch, are in a separate casing, not ontop of each other.
The websites are not full of propaganda, and many of the programs listed are for business purposes. Some businesses still use older machines, which is why you'll often see legacy ports and drives, like serial, parallel, and floppy, on business desktops. Some use Windows but some still use DOS, whether it's the MS variety that most home users had, or an embedded system.
I will agree with one thing. I cannot imagine life without the internet. Even if I didn't use Facebook, Skype, etc. I could still pay my bills, shop, research information, read the news from Greece, learn Greek itself, and so on. Now there's something that I will definitely need to do in Windows or Linux. DOS can handle Greek (and even unicode, if you use a modern wordprocessor), but the only hardware synthesizer that I know of which can is the Apollo II and I don't have one of those.
Here are some sites that may interest you.
Blind-Specific Information and Downloads
http://www.abledata.com
This is a site full of information on old and new adaptive technology for all sorts of disabilities. You really need to know the names of things, or at least, to have an idea of what you're seeking. Otherwise, it can be quite confusing.
http://www.nfbnet.org/download/blind.htm
This is a great listing of old programs for the blind. Most of the links still work, meaning that you can download the programs mentioned.
http://www.empowermentzone.com/bl_tech.txt
yet another list of tech specifically for the blind. Most of these cannot be found today, but some of the companies still exist. Some have changed addresses or websites, so you may need to do a Google search for them.
http://kitchensinc.jgriffith.com/dosgames/dosgames.htm
Here are some DOS games and very useful utilities by Jim Kitchen and others, all are screen reader accessible, of course.
http://www.nettamer.net/
Here's the homepage for the all-in-one browser Net-Tamer. While not designed specifically for the blind, many blind people used it, and I'm sure that some still do. Unfortunately, they haven't updated it since the late 90's but still charge for it.
http://allinaccess.com/happ/
The goal of the owners of this site is to preserve information about blind technology, as well as the programs, when possible.
Mainstream Downloads
These may or may not work with screen readers.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html
Here, you'll find just about every program imaginable, in almost as many categories! From new to old, it's listed and linked here.
http://www.4dos.info/dprogs.htm
Another wonderful listing of links. These are the programs, but there are other good links on the site as well.
http://www.glennmcc.org/download/masrtin/index.htm
More links.
http://celamantia.arcadecontrols.com/docs/dossound.html
This is a partial list of DOS-compatible sound cards. For wireless cards, WaveLAN and ORiNOCO work, according to the Fallacies link.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1046069/yes-usb-drivers-dos
Here's an article from 2003 about using USB devices in DOS. I'm not sure if the newer versions (like Enhanced DR-DOS and FreeDOS) can work with this software or if they have their own varients implemented. Regardless, from what I understand, usb can only be used for storage.
First job we used MS dos for a time and Jaws. Limited, and al Leo pointed out, we did our work, never could access the internet.
Windows 98 a friend had, and I fooled around a bit with it, but the computer was something I used at work and forgot about when I left.
Easy if things were set, a pain when they got out of set. It took to much time to fix.
Now, Microsoft gave us XP and the doors opened for us as blind users.
Sure, we could access the web with 98, but XP was just way easier and better. I think this is true for the sighted population as well.
Jaws 4.5 and 5.0 made it possible to pay that music! Smile.
Installing things became easier, and as Domestic points out, now, well, computing for us is just sweet. It is like night and day.
We were vary limited back then, if you feel limited now.
The more I think of it, the more I think I do remember how programs interact with config.sys. Is that not where you can set whether to load programs into upper and lower memory? If so, then tsr programs would have their lines stored there.
I started out using our school's BBC Micro and Master computers running the OS
from Acorn. You had to run programs from 5.25 inch discs, and while there
were hardware synthesisers that we used, as I recall we were reliant on talking
versions of programs such as the word processor. There was no speech
feedback for the rest of the OS.
My first laptop was a Toshiba running Keynote Gold, Mastertouch (the screen
reader form Pulse Data (now Humanware)), and productivity programs such as
Word Perfect 5.1, Data Ease and Supercalc.
I kept the Keynote Gold Voicecard when I upgraded to Windows 95 and used it
in conjunction with Slimware Window Bridge - the debunked screen reader form
Canada. This was an unhappy combination: I'm not sure that the Windows 95
driver for the Voicecard was ever that stable, but it certainly didn't help that
Slimware Window Bridge actually loaded in DOS and couldn't be removed from
memory under Windows in the event of the all too frequent crashes.
I then worked my way through the various old and modern Windows screen
readers, as well as the different Windows operating system.
Leo and others are right: The usability and usefulness of computers has
improved immeasurably. Don't forget that you used to have to check that JAWS
supported your graphics card (it usually didn't), and until Arctic Technologies
invented it, you didn't used to be able to arrow through web pages as you can
now with the major screen readers. Setting most things up was usually more
complicated than it is now.
I didn't even know that the BBC computers with Acorn were accessible at all! Still, judging by your experiences, I'll stay away from them. But I will check out Supercalc. What is Data Ease? I always wanted to try Windowbridge, at least so that I could use Windows 3.1 and DOS, but never got around to it. I wonder if it's more stable in 3.1? I forgot all about Mastertouch! I have the tablet, software, and manuals for that as well, but never tried it. From the little I know of it, it's actually some kind of DOS touchscreen program! At least, the tablet is supposed to be used for reading lines on the screen, etc. Can you tell me more about it?
Mastertouch was Pulse Data's DOS screen reader, akin to JAWS, ASAP, Vocal-
eyes, Hal etc. It did all I wanted it to do at the time but I can't say how well it
stacked up against most of the rest, except that in my view it was better than
Hal. Data Ease (not sure if it was one word or two) was a database package for
DOS. Whether or not Window Bridge was more stable in Windows 3.1 than 95
probably depended on how the Keynote Gold Voicecard driver loaded, I think
that was at the root of the stability issues I had rather than something
specifically to do with Window-Bridge itself. I suspect its functionality was
pretty limited even compared to its 9x versions (which are in turn limited
compared to what you can accomplish today with a more modern screen
reader), but I can't remember whether they actually withdrew support for 3.1 in
later versions of Window Bridge as I never used that OS.
Tiff, the point leo is making is that you are using old tech as a hobby. You've
never had to use it in any professional situations, you've never had a job that
relied on it, and you've never been in a crunch time situation, where you'd
honestly learn the value of your old tech compared to new tech. Considering
you use old computers as toys rather than for any professional need, and as a
result don't actually have to have QA standards in place to get things done...
You're not really one to actually explain how the working life was with this old
tech.
I wonder if there are programs to emulate DOS machines under Linux, and hacks to get speech. Hmm, something to consider.
I obviously can't talk from personal experience, as far as working professionally with DOS. But there are various professional packages out there for office productivity, etc. including several quite modern ones. The question is how well would these work with screen readers.
Considering how cheap they are, I would recommend just getting a real DOS machine on Ebay, or even one with Windows 3.1, 95, or 98, since you can boot into actual DOS with them, not merely use a virtual machine or a stripped down command prompt.
I liked the keynote gold synth too. Now I'm pretty hooked on elliquence though so I doubt I'd ever go back. Elliquence isn't the most friendly on the ears but it allows me to understand the most text at a faster level.
Hmm, so if I went on the site for the DOS games, could I find some way to play them in windows? That'd be kinda fun.
I need more ways to waste time. ha ha ha
Vert? Yuck! I had forgotten about that one. It was installed on a computer in the closet I used as an office when I interned in 1998. I ran from that junker like the plague. I've never been a huge fan of the dec talk synths either.
For some reason, XP took me a while to get used to, but once I did, I loved it.
I think my favorite BBS system was Wild Cat, in the dos days.
Eloquence is okay, particularly in British English, but I prefer NVDA's version of ESpeak, particularly the Michel voice. But regardless of which version I use, it's free and can read Greek, which is hthe way that I always have it set, since I'm constantly switching between languages.
Oh, XP was good, except it had a boot time that was so horrid and painful. I'd have to eat breakfeast before the system was up and ready for logging in to, but once it was up, it was up. But, XP had a lot of crashes.
Yeah, but that was why Bill envented that sleep mode. Smile.
Pluse you could just let it run?
You must be a fast eater. Of course, I eat so slowly when I'm out at dinner with other people everyone finished like 20 minutes before I do.
I'll not get back in to the accessibility of old stuff and I don't care how "modern" things are created for it, it is not going to be accessible like you need it to be.
Fun to fool around with, but if you need to have it done, you need the best, and many times that isn't good enough either.
Now were did I lose my glasses?
I remember the Apple 2E in 1987 when i was at Overbrook school for the blind in Philly. from what I do remember, we had 45 and a quorter inch floppy disks, and we used the Echo speech sinth. I dont remember much about that time as I a was only 5, but do remember this huge keyboard which appeared bolted to the monitor, and if memory serves me right there were two flloppy disks. the echo had this tiny little speaker wis with a volume knob. all i remember was practicing math and typeing on this thing.
I'm fairly certain that the IIE has a separate keyboard and monitor.
you heard right. 45 and a quorter. lol
make that 5 and a quorter.next time I remember using computers was Windows 95 and Jaws 3.0 or was it 3.2.
I remember that GW micro had the Vertual curcer waaay before jaws did. That made them hands down the better screene reader just for that r reason alone. who else remembers IE4 and jaws 3.0 or 3.2? ugh! i dont miss the days of some program crashing in windows 98 and the entire system would crash and you'd have to start the thing from cold. there was no ending a nonresponsive program! windows 2000 in my opinion is the first stable operating system from microsoft. It was built on the NT system and didn't run on DOS, unlike the Win9X systems.XP and 7 has continued this stabillity which I am very thankful of.
you couldn't pay me to get a dos or Win9X system on ebay.
Awwe, but do you remember the fatal application error dialog? This program has performed an illegal operation and must be shut down? If the problem persists, contact the program vendor? What caused that error, anyway?
I remember it, but don't understand it.
Flaws. I've forgotten why.
Here is an interesting piece of history.
When Windows 98 was popular, people sort of over looked 2000 and malinion. Can't spell that.
Then we got XP, the great build, and all new, but people refused to have there computers run it, so faught hard, even coming up with methods so it looked and felt like 98.
Finally it stuck.
Then we got Vista, and that was pretty much ignored, or people downgraded to XP.
Along came Windows 7, all new and inproved, and people faugh it, making the computers feel and look like XP.
Finally it stuck.
Then we got Windows 8, and... Smile.
and then we got windows 8, and some wanna stil make it look like XP.
its doable but yeesh.
I didn't mind molinium but Vista??? Good God, I hated Vista. lol Yep, bring on Windows 8. Of course, they're coming out with Windows 9 in January, aren't they?
Hi John, yep I remember IE4, or should I say, the consternation when Microsoft
released it and it didn't work with screen readers properly until they released
4.01. As I intimated in an earlier post, Winvision had the virtual cursor even
before Window-Eyes did.
Who remembers doctor jaws.
"Dr. jaws is now examining your system. Pleas wait!"
It always reminded me of something my proctologist might say.
I was a beta tester for jaws when the virtual system was announced. I fought it vigorously, thinking that I would lose sight of what the sighted user was seeing. Thank God I lost that battle.
Bob
Oh, God yes, I remember Doctor JAWS. That was probably the most enjoyed screenreader skit I've ever heard.
hahaha, when i'm thinking of this, i still got the activation floppy disk for jaws 3.1, 3.5, and jaws 4, i think. my first disk activation of jaws is 5, or could be 4.5, can't remember.
Maybe i can use some of the floppy disk in my art work. hmm, that will be cool. :P
Bet you could post these here and some users will want them.
Windows 9? Oh hell!
It will have to look like Windows 7, and well....
nah, windows 9 must be lookin like windows vista, post windows 95 edition. back to basic
my friend, lets all work in a muzium. lol.
Actually, i fancy the thought of putting the floppy disks on some art work and paint over
them, and have a different way of appreciation than sitting on someone else' junk. At
least, i'm not responsible for other people's problems. lol.
Talking about old junks, i quite miss the simplicity of windows 95 and 98 sounds. those
midi sounds? mmm. mmm. nice. lol
And JAWS was so easy to register back in the day, because they used QLM keys. Which meant you could slap it on any computer you'd like, and make it register.
I quit using JFW at version 5, when they started requiring online registration and whatnot, instead of the usual floppies. For some reason, it didn't work, and rather than deal with that, I got Hal, which had Greek support.
Wow, I didn't know Hal had Greek support. Wow!
Sure. It's built into Orpheus. Would I use it now, with ESpeak available? No, and certainly never if I could afford one of the other Greek synthesizers out there. But back then, this is the only one that I could find, and it did its job well. The voice used is not the newer ones, which were made for UK and US English, but the old one.
Wow!! Reading these posts is really testing my memory, trying to think back to the systems I've used.
My experiences were similar to those of Domestic Goddess. I first used a computer in 1987, and it was an Apple2E computer with Bex. I do remember having to put in the floppy disc in order for the computer to actually boot up. Lol I can also remember having a disc with several games on it; the ones I used to play were Blackjack, Lemonade Stand, The Great Escape, and Golf. Sadly, I don't remember any of the commands or how things were done.
My next computer was an Apple2GS, and it was pretty much the same as the 2E. Those are the computers I used throughout junior high and high school, along with a Braille N Speak to take notes in class.
Once I entered college, I had a Braille Lite as a notetaker, and a computer running a REALLY old version of Windows, so old that I can't remember which version it was. Strangely enough, I can remember that my first attempts to chat online with that computer were using a site or server called CompuServe. I can also recall having to connect to my college's Internet (which was, I think, referred to as a Vax) by having to enter what I think were DOS commands; one program I remember using was PCPlus, and the other was, I think, Como. At the time, that process used to completely fascinate me.
From there, I remember having a Windows 95 computer, then one running XP, and now the ones I have now, running Windows 7 and 8.
I do still have a Braille display that runs off a serial cable though. It's a PowerBraille 65 that I got back in 1996. It's basically a fossil, and just this past year, a few of its dots have started to go. But for the most part, it works amazingly well, and considering I can't afford a new Braille display, it's going to have to do for now.
My first notetaker was a Braille Lite 2000. I think I got it in middle school, and definitely used it in high school. But I specifically asked for a BrailleNote for college, since the Braille Lite used to drive me mad! No, I do not like all old technology, and even before they became Freedom Unscientific (or Freedom Science Fiction, as a friend of mine calls them), Blazie Engineering products were terrible. That said, I do really like my Braille Blazer embosser, and am hoping to have it set up some time this month.
The only thing I know about CompuServe, is that I saw many references to it in the old issues of Odyssey Magazine. If I remember correctly, that's where you would see e-mail addresses with numbers instead of words. 12345@compuserve.com, though obviously not so simple. I don't think I've ever heard of PC Plus, but Como is definitely a DOS program. I think it's similar to Laplink, but haven't used either, though I have both in my directory of DOS programs to try.
Ebay has older braille displays for very good prices. You may want to check one of those out. I'm sure you could get a newer one without breaking the bank.
When you wanted to get a listing of files on a disk on the 2e, you didn't do a dir command, you'd catalog a disk. I have the emulator that someone talked about a few messages back.
I do remember CompuServe. I think that they used telephone numbers of some sort, but I could be wrong.
If so, then they were either a dialup service, a bbs, or both. I've always wanted to try a real bbs. As far as I know, they still exist.
Check out Ner BBS, at nerbbs.com And Google Diamond Mind, that's another one I go to, but don't remember the address to.
Do I need to use Telnet or a dialup account? As I recall, you need to dial into these. I have never used Telnet but do have a ppp account with toast.net.
For Ner, you'll need a Telnet terminal of some kind. As for Diamond Mine, I do believe they use Telnet as well, but it's been a while since I was on.
Windows 9 or whatever it is called is coming out in the spring.
but hold those horses cause I think there's still a summer update for Windows 8.1 that has yet to come out.
It seems that Microsoft keeps producing inferior systems and then has to keep updating them. I've never seen so many versions of Windows released in such a short time.
My first use of a notetaker for the blind was the Braille Mate with the Navigator for the braille display. Back in 1995 1996 maybe. The products were m made by Telesensory
Next I used the Braille Light 18 folowed by the Braille Note. Last thing i have used is the PAC Mate. however, I dont forsee myself engaging in the use of specialized notetakers for the blind anymore.
its the new normal tiff.
get those updates out and get them out as fast as you can.
its a good thing.
Hmmmm! I've never heard of the Braille Mate. I'll need to investigate. *smile* If notetakers weren't so incredibly expensive, I wold get one. I have a BrailleNote, but I don't know where it is at the moent, and it seems that the battery will no longer hold a charge.
I think that Microsoft needs to measure twice, cut once. Get all their stuff right the first time, then update as per needed. But that's just me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. *smile*
In defence of Microsoft, stuff was right, people just refused to change. Windows 8 is totally stable, just not XP or Windows 7.
So now they are trying to please as well as make the system run on everything.
As to note takers, that slate and style is still working even now. Smile.
Lol in middle and high school, I remember being pushed to try and use the slate and stylus. I never did get comfortable enough with it to develop any speed though, I write at a snail's pace. The only things I use it for now are if I absolutely need to label something.
You should try this. Believe it or not, it's fairly modern. But after using it, I'll never go back to the traditional kind!
http://www.braillebookstore.com/Read--and--Write-Slate.1
Basically, this slate has a roller, like a Perkins, and allows you to write from left to write. You can easily check your work, and don't need to worry about going down the page, as each time you role the paper, there's a click. The stylus used here is hollow.
How cool is that! Ingenious.
It really is, and it's fun to use! As soon as I started using it, I thought "this is one of the best things I've bought in a long time." It's also extremely light, small, and therefore, portable.
First OS I used for any length of time was 95 at school & 98 at home on a P2 366MHZ with 128MB RAM; the rest of you are making me feel very young!
In fairness, if I could see again I'd probably put a DOS machine together for gaming purposes; I spent many an hour playing Commander Kean, Jill in the jungle, Outrun, Christal Cave etc etc because my lack of sight meant I couldn't really manage anything with more complex graphics. Also spent quite a bit of time learning to program in 98 / DOS environments; made a few games in ZZT which was actually quite advanced for its time in hindsight given that you could write OO code.
I plan on learning QuickBASIC and batch programming. I have the manuals and resources for both, though I'm not sure which to start on first. I suppose batch, since it will let me run programs more easily. I've also heard that there are many interesting things that can be done with batch files. In any case, I'm looking forward to it.
Definitely use Batch scripting, or any shell scripting, for that matter. It's a good precursor to programming, in my opinion.
I've never actually heard it called batch scripting, but I will remember that for future searches. This is the book that I will be using to get started.
http://users.telenor.dk/~dsl645578/batfiles.htm
Here is the site with the information for QuickBAIC 4.5. Newer versions exist, but I haven't really investigated them, so don't know if they will work with DOS. But I am imagining they will. Note that QuickBASIC and QBASIC are slightly different. I will be learning the former.
http://www.petesqbsite.com/sections/tutorials/beginners.shtml
I just saw this article and figured you would find it interesting. Apparently, the Amiga operating system is still being developed. The last update was in 2012, but it hasn't officially been discontinued. I have no idea if it's screen reader accessible or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOS
Scripting is programming, it is just one type of programming is all. Tpically, scripting is defined as the programming used to make connections between two interfaces, or enhance the user interface or experience within one environment.
So you have Visual Basic Scripting for Applications, wher Office developers can automate project tasks such as backups, pulling records from databases and writing to spreadsheets, creating powerpoint presentations out of Word documents and pictures, etc.
Don't let the schoolkidlets fool ya, scripting is programming, always has been and always will be. It just solves different technical issues, and is a different set of languages.
I appologiz* Leo. You right, scripting is programming; I just wanted to convey that scripting was a good jumping off point for up-and-coming coders. What on Earth is the Speaqualizer? Google searching it doesn't show any useful leads.
So should I start with batch files or macros, or are they similar enough that it doesn't matter?
Spequalizer is a hardware synthesizer that connects to a computer, I believe, via an isa slot. So it's not external, like a serial synthesizer. But it can only read very old systems from the 80s. I was unaware of that last fact, and thought that it could read any bios. Still, the fact that someone developed at least one piece of hardware that could read the bios of a computer is encouraging. If we had something like that for modern machines, it would eliminate many headaches.
http://www.abledata.com/abledata.cfm?pageid=19327&ksectionid=0&top=11181&productid=94031&trail=0&discontinued=0
I started with batch. Hmm, it looks like it needs an IBM computer. I don't have one of those. Shame.
I don't think I do either, just compatibles. I have a few Thinkpads, but those don't count in this instance.
What headaches?
Modern sound cards are some really fantasic devices, and the synths are just programs, so nothing to add at all.
You can have 5.1 7.1 channel audio, effects, sound processing, and you name it.
What headaches? Just interested?
Let's say something happened to Windows and you need to rescue the machine, or you want to try out a new operating system, or you have a computer without a hard drive that you want to use, for some reason. In all of these cases, you have a cd, dvd, or usb system that you can use to access your computer, but the boot order is set to hard drive first. Normally, you could just go into bios and change that. But since the bootload starts before an operating system, a screen reader can't be loaded. So this process is inaccessible to us. So, for the most part, is installing Windows. The thing about Spequalizer, and granted, this was only for certain systems, was that it could read the bios. I don't know of any other synthesizer or program, hardware or software based, that could do this.
Tiff is right. There are no synths that can gain access to the BIOS, except, appearently, for the Speaqualizer. Which, given this day and age, is surprising.
Unfortunately, the Spequalizer won't work on modern, or even semimodern, systems. But you'd think that, given all of the advances made since it came out, we could do that by now.
Technology has its shortcomings, as this well demonstrates. Maybe some day we will have a BIOS synth card, maybe not. Only time and imagination will tell.
Ah, but you are missing something important.
When Windows has an issue and you need to rescue the machine, it can be accessed.
The machine must have a working hard drive, and no machine can be booted without.
The Windows CD is used in the media drive to rescue the computer.
This can't be done with a screen reader, and nothing can, no matter what system, because the OS is not there.
Unless the machine is set to boot with screen reader intact from a disc, you can't do this, and to set that up, you still need eyes, a hard drive, and the OS has to be installed.
You can't take a system with a blank hard drive, and boot it.
I do understand where you are coming from, but you miss a few items.
Actually, that's not true. Several Linux cds and dvds have been configured for booting directly from them, and the same holds true for usb drives. You don't even need a hard drive in those cases. It is also possible to boot DOS that way, and at the very least, the basic files (command.com, config.sys, and autoexec.bat), along with a small screen reader, like ASAP, can all be loaded onto a floppy or cd to access the hard drive or to serve when installing DOS or another os. My guess, and I honestly don't know this one, is that you can load a full DOS system onto cd and work from it. I thought that I saw some live images, but must check. If so, I would be very happy indeed, provided that I could open one, put a screen reader on it, and close it once more for booting!
I'll clarify the Linux cds and booting from them issue as I see it.
Trisquel boots to an accessible desktop with Orca running by default.
Ubuntu 12 etc can all have Orca started and will run it after install.
OpenSuSE same for Ubuntu for the current live cd, unsure about the milestone releases.
Debian 7 and 8 have speech for the net installer using Speakup and ESpeak. Unsure about the images that have Gnome as part of them.
Sonar Linux comes up with Speech, it is based off of Arch Linux.
Talking Arch has Speakup and ESpeak.
Gentoo has speech during the installation I believe.
Adriane comes up with speech, unsure about the installation
Paldo comes up, you can start up Orca with the shortcut key alt_windows_s. Though its installation isn't exactly easy.
Have I missed any Linux distros that have some form of accessibility enabled or that can be started?
Fedora 20 and 19 both do, since they run a Gnome desktop. You're right about Gentoo, we've got speech in our installs.
So, you all are saying, I can step up to any PC, place my disk in the drive, and that system will boot with speech and all intact?
Nothing has to be preset or anything?
Or maybe I can get a system that has a clean hard drive, or no drive at all, and place my disk in the drive, and that machine will boot speech and all?
It depends on the version of Linux. But with some, absolutely, and with others, you just type a few keystrokes and Orca will start up.
So your new Linux machine is working?
You just boot from the disk?
Yes. You can boot from disk or you can install the software. My computer is running, but I had a few issues with Knoppix, none of which were my fault. Several Linux users confirmed them. I wrote about it in the Questions for Linux Users thread. Having said, that, as I wrote there, I am not giving up on the operating system. I'm just going to try another distribution. *smile*
I'll just smile.
I thought I should ask this here, since it's an operating system question. If no one can answer, I will look it up, and also ask the seller, who is extremely patient and knowledgeable. But again, it should be fairly simple. My MSDOS machine is up and running perfectly. This is the one that I bought from Ebay. But as I said, it has no floppy or cd drives. Lee put the compact flash card with adapter into the pcmcia slot, but we were unable to find it when cycling through the various drive letters. I know of Como and Laplink, and this machine has both a cerial and a parallel port. If one is already instealled, it will enable us to transfer files from one computer to another, including the card reader, so that using these programs will become unnecessary. If not, then I would like to get either an external floppy or cd drive, either parallel or pcmcia. I am almost positive that DOS would require drivers for them, as there is no such thing as plug and play, even in the modern versions. But if it's just a matter of editing config.sys, as with a wireless card that I saw yesterday, that can easily be done. If not, this laptop also has Windows 98 on it. Can that handle plug and play, or does it cat least ome preinstalled with given drivers for some external drives, card adapters, etc? can you enter 98 by just typing Windows at the command prompt, as you can with 3.1? If so, then I'll ask Lee to try the flash card there, and if it works, he can install the DOS card reader, the screen reader,s and a few other programs, and send the machine back to me, so that I can truly begin my journey in DOS!
I forgot that the Itronix has both a dialup modem and a wireless card in it! I should be able to send Lee the zipped directory via an uploading site (I don't care if it's on the internet, since it's just programs) so that he can start Windows, browse to the direct link, and download it. Then, he can install everything as usual!
To anser the question of the card drive.
1. Maybe there are no drivers on board.
2. It is possible that card drive is not pphysically connected, so doesn't show.
3. It is possible that card drive simply doesn't work.
It's a pcmcia card adapter, so wouldn't be physically connected in the same way as an actual drive. The software that I was referring to is a card reader. But I did see something about an actual hard drive, not a card and adapter, using a pcmcia card slot, just the other day!
All the issues mentioned in 79 have perfectly viable workarounds. @Post 85: yes.
I don't feel like writing paragraphs on this, but if a hard drive isn't present or more accurately if a partition isn't present, the BIOS will ignore the hard drive & just boot to CD / USB regardless of the boot order. Even if a partitioned drive is installed there are still solutions - E.G. play the "how many times can I hit F12 a second" game or simply remove the drive, start booting from CD & reconnect the drive shortly afterwards. Not a problem with SATA drives; a bit more risky with IDE though.
To much work though. Most people just wish to sit down, turn the thing on, and it goes.
Most of the solutions in my previous post are no more work than a sighted person would have to do though; only thing that requires some extra effort is taking the drive out, but we're blind, so we should be used to having to work harder than others to accomplish things.
True. I don't guess it is harder for a blind person that knows how over a sighted person however.
If all this work had some benefits I'd be all for it, but it doesn't.
Now as a hobby, or something, it's fun, but when I need to get something done, I want to just sit down and get it done. Lol
I bought the Asus 1015E, for $200, plus $6 shipping, on Amazon. It was used for one day by the seller, who didn't like Windows 8, and got a 7 machine. So at least I now have a small, portable, and light machine. It's not as small as an actual notetaker, but it's mainstream, so far more powerful, and can be used with regular Windows programs. Plus, the processor is about three times better than that on a netbook. So I'm happy.
I'm sorry. This was meant to go into the PDA or Notetaker thread. Of course, no one will ever delete this, and they still don't offer ways for users to delete their own posts here. I guess I'm not the only one in the stone age.
it sucks when I wanna correct spelling and realize it after the fact.
I wish, also, that they'd implement a delete your own post feature.